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Welcome to the divine worth podcast, where we are letting go of our self doubt anxiety, fear, and limiting beliefs so that we can step into the divine roles that God has for us. I am your host life coach, Karen Papin, and together we are embracing our divine worth.
Welcome to the Divine Worth podcast. Today is a special episode because not only do we have one guest, but we actually have two guests. And so I’d like to introduce, Jenny and Lee. To begin I’ll share a little bit about Jenny and then Lee. Jenny D Webb is passionate about spiritual growth and personal transformation through her writing and podcasting, she encourages others to embrace a faith of love purpose and choosing Jesus.
She and her husband have three great kids, three terrific bonus kids, in laws, and two soon to be three wonderful grand girls. So Jenny, thank you so much for being on the [00:01:00] podcast today.
Jenny Webb: Thank you, Karen. It’s so great to be here with you.
Karen Papin: Well, I’m excited about this and I’m excited also that, that we have Lee as well.
Dr. Lee A. Burge is a retired chiropractor, an author, and a parent coach who found herself taking a leap of trust this year into the world of faith based podcasting, her desire to cultivate deep connections with other women through engaging conversations so that they can experience and embrace the joy of covenant living.
Lee and her husband, Jonathan, have three children who are all married and they fiercely love the three amazing bonus children who joined their family. Lee is eagerly anticipating the arrival of her first grandchild in the spring of 2025. So Lee, welcome and congratulations to both of you for your
grandchildren who will be coming and joining your family soon. Thank you. Thank you. So Jenny and Lee are the hosts of the Dents in My Armor podcast. And I [00:02:00] was listening to their podcast and really felt impressed that to have them on and talk with us about Proverbs 3, 5, which is trust in the Lord with all thine heart, and lean not unto thine own understanding.
And so. Jenny and Lee, I’m excited to dive into this with you guys because this is a scripture that I absolutely love and has been a guide throughout my life. And I would love to hear, what your guys’s thoughts are on this scripture and especially how it relates to divine worth.
Lee Burge: First Karen, thank you so much for the opportunity to be on, for listening to our podcast. We are not big enough yet that we take listeners for granted. So we’ll probably never be that big, so thank you.
Thank you for listening. And 2nd, thanks for the opportunity to share testimony to your listeners when you reached out and I read. What you wanted to talk about that scripture [00:03:00] specifically. I Fell in love with it already. I’m like, this is gonna be such a cool conversation because we really talk a lot in our podcast And the reason we talk about it on our podcast is because it’s just every day in our lives the power of faith and trust and hope and when you Talk about that proverb scripture, trust in the Lord versus leaning on your own understanding.
You know, that’s sort of a journey. Right? But what we find in scripture is that whenever we see that the Lord has grace. It’s always paired with something else, so the Lord is filled with grace and, and what I’ve seen in my research is that the word or the concept that it’s most often paired with, the Lord’s grace is truth.
And so why we can trust in the Lord and why that [00:04:00] is such an important concept, especially I think for women is because we tend to see ourselves through our own eyes, totally normal, totally human. Those are the eyes we have, but the Lord’s eyes are the ones that we should be looking through, especially at ourselves, because he is full of grace and truth.
So I can look at myself and I can say, oh, I really stunk when I just did that. Like, that was not great. Or I am not looking that great today. Or, or whatever. Whatever it is. that’s looking at it through my eyes. But the Lord’s truth. Is that I’m enough that I can do what he asked me to do that I am on the right track that I am in covenant relationship with him.
And so I can trust that his grace is sufficient and I can trust that his [00:05:00] truth is s the truth. It is divine truth. And so that’s why that scripture just so resonates with me because I need his truth. I need it because that’s how I get through the day because if I was just relying on my own understanding of my capabilities and I’m pretty Jenny knows this about me.
I’m pretty confident. In my abilities to do things like, I’m a confident girl, right? But there are moments every single day that reminds me that my trust in the Lord and his belief in me and my ability to get through this moment is real. And so, that’s my starting off comment about this scripture because I love it.
So thank you for letting us bear testimony about it.
Jenny Webb: And I want to echo what Lee said this scripture and I had to laugh one of the notes I have and this was written several years ago in my scriptures is [00:06:00] I need to memorize this and I need to repeat this daily because like Lee I tend to be a fairly I got this and it’s almost that space where I want to prove to the Lord that.
That I’ve got it, and I can do things, and I don’t, hey, I don’t want to bother you, Heavenly Father. I’m doing okay on my own. And so as I’ve really spent years pondering this particular scripture, just because of my own personality, it has given me the opportunity to lean into it a little bit heavier than I have other scriptures.
And what I love about it is that this scripture can be used at any point in our spiritual journey as an entry level, a disciple of Jesus Christ and a follower of our heavenly father. We can read these words and we can be comforted. Hey kiddo, I have you. Don’t worry about it. You don’t have to figure this out.
You can trust me. don’t lean on the world or anything else. Trust me. And, and it’s that kind of space where [00:07:00] one of my grand girls, she loves to be in the pool. But she’s frightened of the pool at the same time. And, we were visiting with her a couple of months ago and they live in Texas. So there’s, you can be in a pool pretty much year round.
And at this, she was sitting on the side of the pool and I had my hands to her and I kept saying to her, you can trust me, honey. You can trust me. Jump. and she was asking all sorts of questions. What if I fall? What is, is the water warm? Is it all of these kinds of things? And the response I kept saying is, sweetie, can you see my hands?
You can reach for my hands. And it’s that kind of relationship. I think that we need to develop with our heavenly father. The water was over her head. She’s a little, little thing. And, so it was deeper than she was and she doesn’t know how to swim. And there are things about it that rightfully so are frightening to her.
But at this beginning of this trust relationship, it is sweetie, my hands are now. And then I finally put my hands on her legs. You can feel Nana’s hands, [00:08:00] honey. Now, reach your hands to Nana’s hands. And then I kind of just pulled her into the pool so that she was gently brought into the pool. And I know in years to come, she’s going to know how to swim, and that will be wonderful for her development, but all along the way, there will be things that she has to trust when it comes to water.
And so that is just kind of how I feel with my heavenly father. That there are things in my relationship with him that have been developed for decades. And there are things in my relationship that are very similar to my little grand girl sitting on the side of the pool where I’m like, I, I don’t know about this.
And he’s saying, Hey, trust me. So it’s not, Sometimes I think we can read this scripture and have it be depending on our relationship and our feelings of self worth. We can read it as a less than scripture. And I would just encourage us to read it as a building scripture that he’s not saying to us, Hey, you’re dumb.
So don’t use your own mind. [00:09:00] Lean on me. It is. You can trust me. And I just, I love the idea of trust because it’s easy to know how to use that in mortality when we’re talking about children that we love or other people that we love, that they can trust us. We are safe for them, and we don’t look at them as less than we look at them as beautiful and divine.
And so they can trust us.
Karen Papin: Well, that is such a beautiful example because for, when I look at the scripture, There’s like two parts of it. And one in my mind, right? There’s the, that trust, we put our trust and our faith in him. and he helps me to see so much more than I realize that I can even accomplish. He helps me to be able to take that next step.
and I love that example that you shared, Jenny, because, It’s a step by step process like we don’t need to just go and jump in the deep end. He’s there and he’s easing us into it. [00:10:00] And, so that, that to me is a beautiful example, of putting our faith and trust in the Lord because he loves us and he is going to ease us into it.
Into that and then there’s that in, like I said, there’s two parts of it. To me, there’s that lean on until I, under understanding, and really we can break that down in so many different ways. It can be about humility in letting go of our beliefs that no, this is the way it should be, or it can be about.
Believing in ourselves more like, kind of like Lee, I loved how you bring that brought that grace and truth aspect into the scripture because, oh, it’s hard for me to step outside my comfort zone and yet. The Lord loves us and going back to that trust, right? And so sometimes we can lean onto our own understanding in that I’m not good enough, but the Lord believes in us.
And so I can put my faith and trust in him.
[00:11:00] So how has trusting in the Lord with all your heart shaped your faith? Your understanding of your worth.
Jenny Webb: I think that’s a great question. Lee has said several times on our podcast and she’s referencing hope. She has said that at times in her life. Hope has been expensive, meaning it was just hard for her to reach because of what she was going through, that it felt too vulnerable or too expensive.
And I think sometimes trust is like that with our Heavenly Father. and I don’t know about you, but I know for myself. There have been times in my life when something has happened that I haven’t really liked. And the tendency I have is to want to pull out my checklist of all the good things I’ve done.
Well, I’ve been to the temple. I paid my tithing. I keep the word of wisdom, all of those things to, to kind of try and hold my heavenly father hostage and say, so these are the blessings I want. And so again, it goes back to that. That trust and all of [00:12:00] us have experienced things in our lives that are really hard and sometimes traumatic and really tear us down.
And I think this scripture really helps us understand that if I look at death, or if I look at illness through the eyes of mortality, That’s pretty horrific. But if I look at it through the eyes of my heavenly father, then like Lee said, his eyes are truth and I can lean on the plan of salvation and all of these things.
And that doesn’t, I don’t want to minimize and say, so you just be so happy that these bad things are happening. Cause that’s not at all what the scripture is talking about. But what it is, is. If we truly believe that we are divine children of a heavenly father who loves us, then certainly the things that we experience are in his mind and heart are going to help us accomplish what he wants for us, even the hard things.[00:13:00]
And I lots of times like to look at the life of my savior, Jesus Christ. As an example, of course, and everything, but his life was not easy, nor really, I wouldn’t want to have lived it. And I’m not even talking about the crucifixion. I’m talking about everything leading up to that point. It was not an easy life.
and certainly he loves his son, Jesus Christ, and certainly Jesus Christ did hard things. And so it helps me remind myself of, Oh, this is more than a vacation. This mortality, this isn’t the reward. I wasn’t good in the preexistence. So now mortality is my reward. My reward is a heavenly reward and heavenly father knows that for me.
And so that’s what I’m trying to minimize my assessment of the situation and maximize his words and his grace and his love. And that helps me when I remind myself of who I [00:14:00] am.
Lee Burge: So good. So good. I could just sit and listen to Jenny talk. She’s like a master of analogies and great truth. There’s a scripture in judges, which sounds how many times does someone like start a sentence with that? I have this favorite scripture found in judges. but I love this story because it’s a guy named Gideon and he asked this question, like, the Lord gives him something to do and he goes, okay, but I mean, if the Lord is with us, then why are all these things befalling us like, and the implication is they’re bad.
Right. And he goes, and where are all the miracles our fathers told us about, like when God brought the Israelites out of Egypt and like, where is this person? Because I’m not seeing him right now. And, so, I love Gideon’s honesty, because I think he’s so relatable to some of the situations we find ourselves in, when we’re talking trust.
Um, and I think he’s so relatable to some of the situations we find ourselves in, [00:15:00] when we’re talking trust. I will never be able to talk about faith and trust and hope, as all the same thing ever again in my life, after some recent growth experiences that I’ve had this year. And I have never had a faith crisis in that when I define faith, I define it as I believe God can do what God says he can do.
That’s, faith to me, and I know that God can move that mountain if he deems it necessary to be moved. That, that is a given for me, and I have never questioned that at all. What I have questioned in my life is whether I trust God’s decision about whether the mountain needs to be moved or not.
Because I think it needs to be moved and I can tell you the exact coordinates where it needs to [00:16:00] be moved to, but that doesn’t always align. With what God’s plan is. And so I have had a trust crisis before and Jenny and I have talked about. We don’t love that word crisis because there’s a lot of emotion that goes with that word.
And sometimes that emotion is well placed. But what I’ve learned about trusting in the Lord. Recently, which is also, I mean, I’m 56 freaking years old. Like I really thought that I would have life figured out by now that I would know how my relationship with God works. I would know what my covenants, what power my covenants give me and exactly how to access it at any moment.
And here we are. I am probably ending one of the most exponential growth years of my life in all of the good ways. Right? But in also of [00:17:00] the having had lots of opportunities to develop growth this year. And I was stunned, I think, by how much growth I had left to, to get. and I don’t know, that, that may sound like I’m kind of full of myself a little bit.
And I, it’s not meant that way at all. I forgot that I’m not like a mountain climber, hiker kind of person. I’m a beach person. I grew up in Florida. Beaches are my thing, not mountains, but I have lived in places with mountains and what I know from people who hike and love to go mountain climbing is that, none of them have ever said once they’ve done one, they don’t need to do anymore.
Like that, well, I’ve climbed this mountain and, I’ve gotten to this peak and I’ve seen this view and so therefore there is no other mountain in the world. I need to climb. In fact, it’s quite the opposite from this group of people that I’ve met that I mean, if they’ve hiked one [00:18:00] mountain, they want to hike them all.
And what I’ve learned about trust recently is that, that has been hard for me to access. As Jenny said it in the beginning of her comment, it’s felt expensive. But what I continue to learn is that if I trust in God’s timing, when the mountain’s going to move, and I trust in his plan where he’s going to move the mountain to, that the view becomes Unmatched.
Without words. So stunning. Because I very much I’m a planner and I want things to go a certain way. And so accessing trust for me, you know, trust in the Lord with all thine heart. Really? You mean all of it? Like, like, there’s no little voice in my head going, yeah, but. Oh, I really could you just move it just I think it that mountain should [00:19:00] be moved just slightly to the left like none of that wow that’s that is a big ask is what I’ve learned about myself and that separating those concepts for me have actually been incredibly helpful because I’ve learned that I’m not that bad.
I’m not weak I’m not. I don’t lack faith because I think we judge ourselves really harshly if we start to believe that we lack faith and that is not what I am experiencing at all when I have a question, it’s not a lack of faith. It could be a slight lack of trust because I’m a girl who likes things to go the way I like them.
But I can work on that. That’s something I can work on because I have the faith to work on it. I can trust because I have faith. And if you go one step further, I can hope because I [00:20:00] trust. And that has been, when we bring that all back to our divine worth, like who we really are, there’s this quote by Thomas S Monson that talks about the value or the worth of a soul Is wrapped up in who we have the potential to become.
Like, that’s amazing when we think about who we are in God’s eyes, and when we’re able to access Him, knowing that’s who we’re trying to become like in the end, we have the faith that He can make it happen. We trust that His plan is accounting for my weakness and weaknesses, in my case. And we hope that through him, we can overcome them and ultimately become who we’re, who we’re meant to become because of our divine nature and our divine worth.
I mean, what a, like, what a crazy, beautiful [00:21:00] scripture that it can bring this entire conversation out of it. Just in those two little sentences. So I love that about it.
Jenny Webb: And I just, it’s up for if I follow on with that, lots of times we don’t know how to go about certain things and heavenly father in this, in the, in verse six, I know this is not the verse you wanted us to look at, but in all of my ways, acknowledge him and he shall direct thy paths.
And so that just is, Hey kiddo, you may not know how to trust me. You might not understand me very well yet. So here’s some hints. If you will acknowledge my hand in all things, which goes to having humility and having gratitude and having eyes that are open to see his hand in our lives. And once we start thanking him and recognizing his hand and his touch, it, it sparks the divine in our, in our own hearts and in our own selves that we are able to then say, wait, if he truly is who he says he is.
Then I must [00:22:00] be who he truly says I am, and that helps us with that divine identity, because None of these, you can read these scriptures as you’re not smart enough and you need to be a minion to me and say thank you to me and everything. And that’s not at all what it’s about. It is about the more you understand me, the more likely you are to understand who I see you as and as your creator and as your father.
And so I think that it’s really important for us. to take that second verse as, well, if I don’t know where to start, he just gave you the roadmap on how to start this trusting in him and everything.
Karen Papin: I love that, Jenny. Thank you for bringing that verse in. I’m actually surprised that I didn’t include that because usually I lump those two scriptures together.
And when I went back to the text, I was like, wait, I didn’t include verse six. So thank you for bringing that in because you’re right. That is teaching us, [00:23:00] okay, this is how we can do it. Start looking for him. Just open your eyes to see. And gratitude is such a powerful way of being able to do that.
How do you feel that actually hold on there? There is one more thing that I want to go before I go to the next question. one thing that came to my mind as you both were speaking was, scene from the movie Joseph Smith, the prophet of the restoration that the church put out like
probably 18 years ago. I don’t know. I served my mission on temple square in Salt Lake city, Utah. And part of my mission was presenting that movie. And so I, I don’t know how many times I saw it, but as you were talking and you were talking about challenges and trust in the Lord during those difficult moments in your life.
There’s the scene where Emma says Joseph Smith had just been tarred and feathered. And [00:24:00] she’s helping to clean the tar off. And she asks him, do you ever feel like sometimes he asks too much, God asks too much. And sometimes we really do go through such difficult things that it’s like. It’s too expensive, right?
That’s what Lee was saying earlier. It’s too expensive. what advice do you have for people who are in the difficulty of, and feeling like, Oh, it’s just, it’s too hard and it’s too expensive.
Lee Burge: That’s a good question. I have a saying that I have to repeat to myself and it is God’s most tender mercy is that he prepares us.
And that’s an exercise in trust because sometimes we look at the things that we’re facing and they seem really big and really wide and really [00:25:00] deep. And very, very, very overwhelming. And, this year I set out to very naively, I chuckle now that we’re at the end of the year. I set out to better understand how to partner with the savior on a daily basis.
I felt like my relationship with my heavenly father was incredibly solid. Like, I know how to access him. I pray. And I say, dear heavenly father, and there he is. Right. But how do I in, in every moment access my relationship with the savior and his infinite pool of strength and resources. That was a question that I set out to tackle this year.
Funny, funny way. I think I was a little brash in January about that quest. and I’m 100 percent honest when I tell [00:26:00] you I had no idea the journey that would be. I love that Joseph Smith movie that you referenced because in another scene when he and Emma are having a quiet moment, he talks about how some of us are meant to swim in deep waters.
And, that can feel kind of scary, especially if you’re not a good swimmer, you know, like I don’t, I want to stay in the shallow end. I’m very comfortable with my floaties in the shallow end. what I learned this year is that we’re not meant to swim in deep waters. We’re meant to dance on the waves with the savior.
That I don’t need to access him because he’s always here. That I’m not gonna win extra brownie points because I did something on my own. That’s really, that’s not actually the plan at all. The plan is to be carried by the Savior in every moment. And through every moment. [00:27:00] And so, what I would say to someone who’s facing really tough challenges Is to trust in the Lord with all thine heart, that if it’s messy, it’s okay.
That means it’s not the end, right? I can’t remember exactly what that saying is, but if it’s not okay, it’s not the end. That messiness is the plan. Mortality is messy. And I love how Jenny she’s talked about in previous episodes. We sort of start to get in our mind that the blessings of mortality is the reward.
That, Oh, I have a house and we go through this laundry list of things that we thank heavenly father for. And I think we need to thank him. That’s, I’m thankful that I have the blessings of mortality that I do have, but those aren’t the end. Those are part of the messy middle. Those are the little things here and there that reminds me that I’m not alone in this.
[00:28:00] And so never feel alone. That’s my advice. Way easier said than done. Way easier. But that you recognize that anything you’re facing, you are not facing alone. That God has prepared you for this moment, and if He brings you to it, He will bring you through it. That’s His promise. And He is bound by that promise to us by our covenants.
Our covenants bind us and tether us and anchor us to a Savior who is standing there holding us while the waves are crashing that he knows the steps he not only knows the way this is what I’ve learned. This is part of what I’ve learned this year. He not only knows the way he is the way rest comfortably in his arms, lean in to his chest. Rest your head on his shoulder. He will carry you through this [00:29:00] moment. That is been one of the greatest truths that I have learned this year about not just how to face challenges, but how to face the good stuff too. Like, he’s just not a fair weather friend who’s here to jump in, you know, the pinch hitter.
Like, ooh, this is hard. I’m tired. Can you jump in here and carry me across the finish line? That’s not his role. He is there for the highs and the lows, for the good and the bad, and his arms are ready. His arms are willing. His arms are strong. He doesn’t, he does not tire. Of carrying us through whatever it is we’re facing, be it good or magical and so that’s , yeah.
Wow. That’s a lot. That wasn’t a simple 1 answer question or 1 sentence answer to your question. Sorry.
Jenny Webb: Following up on that. And thankfully I loved your visual of dancing on the waves that to me was just so powerful and so tender. I [00:30:00] think it would be ignorant of us and unkind of us to assume there is a one sentence answer to that question, because as you said, it is messy.
And I would just really invite anyone who is in this, that kind of a season to slow things down, to take a deep breath. To put first things first, Heavenly Father and your relationship with him, Jesus Christ and your relationship with him, your covenants, and if those feel too hard to even lean on, then take another step back.
And if, just find your first strand of truth. I know that God is in the heavens. Okay. Okay. That’s a good place to start. When you are in a place where you feel like you are drowning. That’s a good place to start. When I was a teenager, I was a lifeguard at a local pool. And of course, in all of that training, it is you never get too close to a drowning, someone [00:31:00] who’s thrashing in the water and is feeling anxious because they would pull you down.
The good news is when you’re talking about Jesus Christ, it’s like we said, he is like right there. He is holding you as you’re thrashing. And it’s okay to ask on a minute by, are you still there? Are you still there? And kind of, you can even ask it in a very panicked way. I I’m feeling panic. Are you still there?
Are you with me? And I think that the things I would be concerned about is, Number one, don’t allow Satan to get involved in the conversation because he wants to desperately. He wants to distance you from your savior, Jesus Christ. He wants to distance you from your heavenly father. He wants you to question your divinity.
He wants you to question your purpose. He wants you to feel isolated and alone. So really, watch out for him because he’s trying to get into the conversation and utilize tools that we have been given. So not only do we have scriptures and covenants and temples and, church leaders, we also have mental health professionals, [00:32:00] and we also have, the church has some fantastic resources in their self reliance program.
So if we are in a financial situation or an education or a mental, the church has some really great resources that we can utilize and through all of this. My hope and my prayer would be to give yourself grace. Like we, we are not meant to do this without any help mortality. That’s not the sign of a good lived life is that I did it by myself, white knuckled and all.
It’s like we said that the sign of a good life is someone who is in lockstep with their savior Jesus Christ, not trying to outrun him, not trying to lag behind him, but just With him every step of the way and so I just feel like there needs to be a lot of grace That if we are in a space that we are questioning things It’s okay to question but just give yourself grace as you question and [00:33:00] question with your heavenly father not against him Make this a team effort
Karen Papin: one thing That comes to my mind is sometimes we can really shame ourselves and so this whole talk of grace, I love because we do get into this place where we shame ourselves and there’s a difference between godly sorrow and shame. And I’d like to hear your thoughts on that and how it kind of ties into what we’ve been talking about
Jenny Webb: when we talk about shame, dissect these feelings.
And it’s okay to dissect your own feelings. If the feeling you have is hide less than, secret. those kinds of feelings, despising disparaging, you need to know right in those moments, none of that comes from heavenly father and our savior, Jesus Christ, not a single one of that. And so that kind of shame, those kinds of whispers are Satan.[00:34:00]
And so it really, and not that I love talking about Satan, but you have to be so aware that he is engaged. He really is. This is a war to him and he is engaged. And certainly for anyone who is a follower of Jesus Christ by declaring yourself a disciple, that is, you just put a target on yourself. And I don’t mean that in a scary way.
I mean, that in a he’s going to get involved. He just is. And so when you can, Oh, that Satan talking to me, what does my savior say? And I love Jesus Christ again, is the best example of this. When Satan is trying to talk to him, he responds with scripture. He responds with absolute truth. And that’s how he’s able to tell Satan to get the behind me, Satan.
and I think we can do the same kinds of things when we hear this kind of feeling, when we feel this kind of shame of hide, you’re despicable. Then we can counter that with come unto me. Oh, [00:35:00] well, Heavenly Father in Jesus Christ. They’re not saying come unto me because they’re clueless. We know that they know absolutely everything.
And so when they say, come on to me, they’re saying, Hey, come closer, honey, because I’m the source of protection against that really vile lie of hide, feel ashamed of your, of yourself. And it’s okay to be mindful of, Oh, I did something wrong. And now I’m going to repent. That’s a very different feeling than is.
You’re despicable. You’re unlovable. You distance yourself from me. You are unclean. None of those thoughts or feelings would ever come from our savior, Jesus Christ. And, we really don’t have the ability to understand what the atonement was, Gethsemane, we don’t have the mortal capacity to even comprehend that.
As a mother, I have walked with my children through some hard seasons, but I didn’t feel that as they felt it, I cried with them. I held them as they cried. I [00:36:00] tried to find solutions, but I don’t know what it felt like for them in their hearts and in their minds. And Jesus Christ somehow, some way was able to feel.
Exactly what we felt, what we feel, what we’re doing, the actions we’re choosing and all of our motivations for those actions. And I just feel like when we really truly have a testimony of that, and the idea of feeling shame has to kind of dissipate for us because we know that’s a lie and there is nothing about our savior that would.
And many of our General Authorities have said this, you cannot sink lower than the love of the Savior, Jesus Christ, and you just simply can’t because he’s already been there and he already paid it and he already came through it. And so I just think it’s really important to recognize whose voice. You’re listening to [00:37:00] because it’s going to be one or the other in those kinds of moments.
Lee Burge: Elder Kieren, I think it was April of this year in general conference. It’s this quote that we have all latched onto that God is in relentless pursuit of us. When he said that, I remember listening in real time and like my spiritual DNA was changed. Like, I don’t know why that at this time, that message hit me with the force that it did.
And then as we were doing a podcast episode a little bit after that, and we were talking about this, it occurred to me in real time that the adversary is in as relentless pursuit of us as God is. We’re trophies for the adversary. And we had talked about in relation to this, that the adversary calls us by our weaknesses.
And Deity calls us by our name, and if we’re having trouble recognizing which voice is talking to us and sounds more loud at that moment, [00:38:00] right? Shame or godly sorrow. And side note, President Nelson emphasizing the practice of daily repentance is such a gift because, If we are practicing daily repentance, we never go so far astray that these deep feelings of shame become a reality for us.
We can feel badly about, oh, dang, I could have handled that better. I’m gonna, I’m gonna repent. That’s on my list for today, to to kind of chat with God about and help me figure out how to handle it differently next time. The same because we know the situation is going to happen again.
And so that practice of daily repentance, I think, is key. in helping us be able to continue to distinguish which voice is ringing more loudly in our ears.
Karen Papin: There’s so many takeaways from this whole [00:39:00] conversation. I would love to hear, what is like one small and simple thing that those listening can do today to start to apply what we’ve talked about.
Lee Burge: Okay. I’m going to jump in. What has been pinging my brain as we’ve been talking? Is pray, I think that it’s funny. You just said 1 small, simple thing and I’m like, pray always that’s so simple and so small and it’s and it doesn’t feel like that. But yet I think that, I said this recently again to 1 of my daughters in law.
Who was, who’s experiencing some challenges and I said take your big emotions to God. He can handle them. And I think that’s what prayer becomes. It’s just a conversation with God in the name of Jesus Christ. And improving [00:40:00] the power in my prayers is my next quest and I’m announcing it to the world that this is where I’m headed next, that if we’re frustrated with a situation.
And God, because of the situation, that we can tell him that if we are struggling with something, we can share that with him. If we’re upset with another individual because of some choice they made and how it impacted us, we can tell God that he is our best listener and our most inspiring solution oriented person to. Pray, pray when you’re happy, pray when you’re frustrated, pray when you’re angry, pray when you’re feeling peaceful, pray, take your big emotions to God. Because he knows how to help you process them.
He’s not gonna tell you that what you’re [00:41:00] feeling is not valid. I have never had God tell me, well, you’re kind of overreacting to that a little bit. You, you really shouldn’t, you know, feel so hurt by that. On the contrary, both him and my savior have said that is hard. Rest here with me for a second.
Let’s figure this out together.
Jenny Webb: I love that Lee, because that’s exactly what I was going to say, is the reality is like we said, prayer is our first. I hate to even use the word tool, because it’s a relationship and we are, regardless of where we are in our journey through mortality and our journey into a relationship with our heavenly father and our savior, Jesus Christ, prayer never changes as the first step. That’s always, regardless if we’re a prophet, or if we are someone who’s just barely at a place where they’re like, Oh, I wonder if there is a God prayer always changes. This is our [00:42:00] first avenue. I would really encourage people as well to develop daily spiritual habits.
So we talked about prayer and Lee talked about it so beautifully. Scriptures. Scriptures are so powerful. It’s such a gift from our heavenly father that he has given us these words and he has given us the power and ability to read and to discern and to ask and to seek, I love those invitations from him.
They aren’t casual invitations. They are invitations that will change our hearts and our relationship with ourselves, as well as with him and his son. And so I think that those kinds of things. So again, prayer, daily scripture, or spiritual habits. And then wherever you are on the covenant path, I would encourage you to celebrate that and then look to the next covenant and start to develop a plan to embrace the next covenant.
[00:43:00] If perhaps you have received the covenants that are available to you. Then celebrate the ones you have received and utilize the power that is in those covenants. They aren’t just casual. They are in very empowering, regardless if we’re talking baptism or temple covenants, every covenant we make with our heavenly father provides us truth, provides us strength, provides us deeper access.
And so utilize those things. I just feel like when we are talking about our divinity, Heavenly Father has given us so many tools to really lean into that divinity and to discover that divinity, and he celebrates that discovery. He has told us, hey, every single thing I have, I want to give it to you, kiddo.
Everything. And so he’s not holding anything back, including our identity. And I think that that is, as we lean into that, we started to [00:44:00] discover who he is and who we are, and that’s really important to him and it’s important to us in our journey.
Karen Papin: Thank you so much. How can those listening connect with you?
Lee Burge: Great question. So, we would love for you to listen to our podcast, The Dents in My Armor. We’re on Spotify. We’re on Apple Podcasts. We’re on Audible. We’re on YouTube. We are everywhere where podcasts are found. we also have a website. The dents in my armor dot com. And, one place that we’re super active is on Instagram.
we are there, we’re posting and, we would actually really love messages. We, you have a question, you disagree with something we’ve said that, that can happen, or you just want to join our conversation. That’s sort of one of our handles. Just join the conversation, comment, message.
So yeah, they can find us there too. [00:45:00]
Karen Papin: Well, Jenny and Lee, thank you so much for coming on and having this discussion with me today. I’m excited that our listeners get to hear this because it it has been amazing. So thank you so much.
Jenny Webb: Thank you, Karen. We really appreciate the opportunity to share our thoughts and feelings with you.
Karen: If you have found this podcast to be a light, please share it with others and leave a review, which helps others to be able to find the podcast as well. To learn more about your divine worth and potential, you can check out my divine worth scripture study journal with over 52 scriptures relating to your divine worth and potential.
You can find that on Amazon by searching divine worth journal by Karen Papin. Or through the link here: Amazon
You are of worth. You have a purpose. The Lord loves you and he believes in you and only you can make the impact on this world that you are meant to make. Join me next time as we talk more about divine worth and potential.
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Quotes from this episode
