Welcome to the Divine Worth Podcast. Our guest today is Annie Ogden. Annie is from Lehi, Utah, and a total victim of God's plan being much cooler than her own. After serving a mission in Tampa, Florida, and graduating from BYU, she has worked as a social media strategist, comedian, aquarium educator, amateur American ninja warrior, and is currently in the throes of going to law school in the fall to continue her work in international human rights. So Annie, thank you. Welcome, and thank you for being here.

Thank you, and thank you for reading out that bio. It is random and you did great.

I love it because it just shows that you have like this whole scope to you, right?

You know, some people would call that ADHD. Doctors have. But I feel like I'm the cautionary sign of making a bucket list and praying about it, because God just might tick those things off and it's really fun.

Okay, so to begin — what is divine worth to you?

I think for me, divine worth was something that you grow up hearing all the time, especially if you grow up in the LDS church. But I think it didn't super hit me until recently — this idea that every person on the planet has a soul and that soul is beautiful. Period. Full stop. There's lots of things where we add a comma to that — a "but" or an "and" — and try to put different conditions on the worth of our soul. No. Divine worth is the fact that because you are alive, because you're here on this earth, because you have a soul, it is beautiful, you have worth, and God is obsessed with you, and he loves you no matter what.

I love that you said God is obsessed with you. And the question that comes into my mind is — what if, with every person I met, I strived to see the beauty that is within their soul?

We'll say, "they're great, but..." I have done this. But we need to put the period, we need to put the full stop. Because so much happens when you just look at a person and separate them from their decisions, separate them from their circumstances, and say — you are a person and you are a soul and God is obsessed with you. How does that change the way I see these people? And often, pretty much always, what that means is that I get to feel a little bit of that love. I get to see these people for who they really are and not just the labels we slap on them.

What are some things that have helped you see that?

I love storytelling. I was a theater kid in high school, and part of the reason I loved it so much was this idea of really understanding where people are coming from. You could take a villain in a Shakespearean play and say, well, what is making them make that decision? I think that built up a lot of empathy. And going on my mission — meeting so many different types of people in Florida. One day you would be in someone's house with cockroaches crawling on your leg, and the next meeting someone with six columns in their house. You just met so many different people, and on my mission you are in the mindset of how does God see this person? It really helped you to see all these stories — refugees, so many people. Finding different stories and understanding people wholly — that's what has helped me see their worth.

And I think going along with that — it's about asking questions. I was thinking about Eve. I'm a secretary in the Relief Society presidency and we were planning something for Mother's Day — looking at the women in the scriptures. Eve had two sons, and one killed the other. That seems so unfathomable to me. But when we started asking questions — what might they have thought or felt? How did they cope? — it opens everything up.

Yes! That is so true. And when you start to ask those questions, that's when it really gets real. I think about Adam and Eve as parents — the courage to have another son, Seth, afterwards. Can you imagine that decision and that conversation between them as parents? Feeling like they had messed up in the worst possible way, and still saying yes again. When you start to really think about the reality of these situations, it becomes real. I love that example.

One of the things you mentioned in your bio was you're a total victim of God's plan being much cooler than your own. I'd love to hear more about your story and how you've come to realize that.

I think I'm very humbled because I grew up thinking that my life plan was going to be one way. I have always loved to laugh, always been a theater nerd, always loved being creative. And I used that as a shield and as a defense, as most comedians will admit to. Growing up, I had a lot of insecurities. I thought — I'm not as smart as so-and-so, so I can't be a doctor. I'm not as beautiful as my best friend, so I'm not going to be the bombshell high school sweetheart. I'll be the funny best friend. I felt very limited on what I could achieve based on my own perception of myself. I restricted myself a lot based on what I thought my capacity was. For a really long time I thought I was going to be an actor, and that was great.

But luckily God had other plans. I went on a mission because I knew it was a good thing to do and I loved God. And as I got set apart, I remember words something along the lines of: you need to remember that this is not your mission. This is the Lord's mission. And I was like — rude. How dare you think I think that? But it really made me think, what does it look like to go on the Lord's mission versus my mission?

It meant being placed in leadership really early, which meant I couldn't be the funniest missionary in the mission. How dare. It also meant I couldn't be the perfect missionary. I couldn't be the best leader because I wasn't ready for it. And I had to ask myself — am I willing to sacrifice being a perfect missionary to being the Lord's missionary? When I did, my relationship with God completely changed. All of a sudden I didn't feel like I was just fighting him and hoping for one thing and being really scared he was going to say no. It allowed me to dialogue with God in a way I never had — to be very real with him.

He asked me to quit the acting major at BYU. Hardest thing I've ever done. I should have harder things in my life, but it was so hard. And it was — do I want to live my life my way, or do I want to live the Lord's life? Choosing to try to live the life God had sent me kept that relationship. And the worth that didn't come from me fulfilling circumstance, but from me following the Lord in that relationship — it created a sustained happiness that came from nowhere else. And so it's kind of addictive. Where I was like, wait — never mind, tell me what to do. This is great. This is awesome.

It's been seven years now since I left on my mission. And my gosh, how much happier I am. I am so glad I didn't move to LA like I wanted to. And how many times now I still get to be funny. I still get to do acting sometimes. I still get to do a lot of these things I wanted to do, and now I get to do a lot of cool things I never thought I would go do. I'm going to law school. Holy cow. Who let me go to law school? I don't know — God, I guess. I thought in the beginning, my story was: I have an idea for my life, I need to set a goal, make a plan, fulfill it, and that is where my strength lies. It's on me. And that's a burden. And it's very limiting. So when I let go of that idea and gave up being the perfect version of my life to live the Lord's life for me — it lifted a burden, it opened up my opportunities, and it created this relationship with the Lord that was so much more assuring than self-assurement.

So that's pretty much the difference between self-worth and divine worth right there — it's not about coming from within. It's actually coming from the Lord, because that is constant. Whereas self-worth can change depending on how you view yourself.

Does God want us to love ourselves? Absolutely. But I think when I was younger I felt a lot of shame, because there are some sayings like — if you don't love yourself, who else is gonna love you? And the reality is there are days where I don't feel like I love myself a lot. And then I'd think — well, I don't love myself, so nobody else is going to love me. No. If you don't love yourself, God still loves you. And I think that was so powerful to me — being able to work toward loving myself from that foundation. Divine love is the backup plan, even when you don't have self love. You're not barred from divine love if you don't feel self-actualized or self-assured.

The other thing from your story that I wanted to highlight was that you had to sacrifice being the perfect missionary versus being the Lord's missionary. I feel that is a big key within our lives — we have to let go of that idea that we need to do everything exactly right so that the Lord can actually do his great work within us.

Yeah. And I think that is what he was asking Adam and Eve to do, and everybody in the scriptures. Are you willing to give up this idea of being perfect at first, so that you can learn the things you need to learn to be truly perfect later? Quick perfection is going to be hollow. So we have to give up this idea of only limiting ourselves to temporary perfection, because that will be a barrier to true eternal perfection later on. We have to learn things along the way to get to that endpoint.

And right now, Annie — just take a moment and recognize that you learned it when you needed to learn. Right? That's all part of the plan. Heavenly Father knows when you're going to be ready to hear what you need to hear. Maybe you did hear it earlier, but you weren't ready to actually receive it.

Yes. I love that, and it goes again with this idea that God knows us. So he's willing to give it to us early, but he also wants to give it to us when it will be most helpful. I was trying to get everything organized for the law fellowship I run at BYU — and there was a time where I could have told people some of the things I was working on, but it wouldn't have helped them because of the timing. Just wait a couple more weeks, and then I could give you complete information that would be more helpful. And I think the Lord taught me through that. He was like, hey Annie — because that's how he talks to me sometimes as a friend — have there been any moments in your life where you think that just getting your answer from me is going to solve everything? And I was like... yeah. And he said, sometimes it's just not the right time. If an answer isn't coming now, it's not because God's being a meanie pants. It's because he wants to give it to us at the most helpful time and in the most helpful way.

And if you're thinking about Nephi — best case scenario in Jerusalem, maybe he'd be wealthy, maybe a high priest, doing good things. But the Lord saw Nephi and said — he can be a king. He can be a prophet. He can write an account that will be read by millions of people 2,000 years later. What an incredible vision. But that didn't happen in First Nephi chapter one. It takes years of going into the wilderness to get to the promised land. And a lot of those experiences probably are the things that allowed him to become that prophet, that king, that record keeper. The Lord was willing to open Nephi's life to his plan — not the perfect Jerusalem life, but the Lord's life for Nephi. And you can see all of the hard things, all of the heartache. Being on a boat you built yourself, in the ocean, not knowing how to build a boat. Your siblings dancing in a weird way. Real hard things that have to happen — not only so you can be ready to accept the amazing opportunities the Lord sees for you, but so he can get you ready to actually receive those things.

I am really curious — you went from theater major to law school, international human rights. Can you tell that story?

So before my mission, I was going to be an actress. I was going to graduate from BYU in the acting program, get an agent, move to LA. And at the end of my mission, the Lord could ask me a question he couldn't ask before — will you quit acting? At least for right now. And it took a lot of promptings and very clear direction until there came a moment where it was: do you want to keep this relationship that we've built? Or if you follow your path, you're going to lose this relationship. And so he asked me to quit acting and I did. Very hard.

I came home and said, okay — you told me what not to do, so you are going to tell me what to do with my life. And he said, good try. And he did not give me that answer for a really long time. I tried different things. I started studying biblical studies — loved it but it didn't feel right. So I got minors in Hebrew instead. I took every 200-level class under the sun. I graduated BYU with 209 credits, which is insane. And finally, ranting to my beautiful mother, I said, I've tried every major under the sun and they all feel bad. Do I need to just settle? And she said, well, you haven't tried advertising yet. Now, my mom, my grandpa, and my older sister — who I feel slightly competitive with — all graduated from BYU in advertising. There were two things I swore I would never do: go to BYU and do advertising. We already gave up on the first one. But I took the class and I felt the Spirit say — this is the class, this is the major.

Then I got to visit Israel. Incredible trip. I was sitting on what they thought was Mount Sinai, really stressed about being in the creative track of advertising. And God said, nope — you need to focus on strategy. And I said, okay. Through that I learned a lot about communication and storytelling. The divine principle of advertising is taking something you feel is important and learning how to help other people see the importance in it too. I found a social media account called Religious Freedom for All, messaged them, started working with them, and it really became — this is really important. And I started falling in love with meeting people throughout the world who have divine worth but, because of their circumstances, don't know it. People who should be able to choose what they believe because that is part of being a human soul on this earth. And I started getting more and more entrenched in it, until praying about it, God said — there's a place you can help. And so now I'm applying to law school. It's going horribly. I'm very mediocre. But we're trying to follow that path, and that's kind of where we're at.

And Annie, what I love about this entire conversation is: see your worth, see others' worth, trust the Lord. And then it's like — the Lord really stresses, trust me, trust me, trust me. And then once we're trusting him, he says, okay, now you figure out the next step. He doesn't leave us, but he starts to get us to trust ourselves too. It becomes kind of a back and forth. And your story just shows that whole process.

Yeah, and it's very messy. Like, I think if you met me and got the social media version of me, it'd be like — wow, she's a comedian going to law school, she has never struggled with anything in her life. And like even just the law school thing — I cry almost daily because I've applied to law schools and I haven't heard back. And I think it's so easy to just see the cool results and not see the struggle. Just as God wants us to love ourselves, he wants us to trust ourselves and build self-trust. But in the moments where it's really hard to trust ourselves, there is always divine trust. He is always going to trust us. And we have him to trust even when we can't trust ourselves. Self-love, divine love, self-trust, divine trust.

Such a good point. Okay, Annie — what is your favorite divine worth scripture?

There are so many. I think my answer has changed in this conversation. I reserve the right to change my favorite scripture at any point in time, and I do so on about a 30-minute basis. But the one this conversation is calling to me is Hebrews 12:2 — "Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."

The term "author and finisher of our faith" really became apparent to me upon reflection as we've been talking today. We're talking about stories — how everyone has a story. And through Jesus Christ and God, and their ability to see us and their power, they love us enough to be the author of our stories and the finisher of our stories. Because in the beginning we might set out and think it has one ending — like me. But they have the power to write the perfect ending for our stories and to get us to that perfect ending, albeit through a lot of mess. And I think that principle of them being the author and finisher of our faith — because they see our divine worth — is everything.

Every good story has a lot of mess. Or else it wouldn't be a story. Okay, what is one small and simple thing that those listening can do to embrace their divine worth?

I think my relationship with God changed when the way I talked to him changed — when I stopped talking to him like this otherworldly being just watching and maybe sometimes listening. He is our Father and he is our friend. I have time for very respectful prayer, but I also have time for friend prayer and father prayer. A lot of times I want to impress God so much because I love him that I hold back the ugly parts of myself. And that is not helpful in a relationship. I've learned to say things like — hey, I don't want to whine because this is a whiny thought, but I also want to be really honest with how I feel about this. Or — I know you've confirmed to me every time I pray about it that law school is the right thing. It's still really hard for me. So that's a silly thing, but it has really changed the way I pray.

And I'll also throw this out — the most recent really good experience I had learning about my divine worth was from a talk by Elder Gary E. Stevenson called "Promptings of the Spirit." At the end he gives this invitation. He says: I close with an invitation. Many of you start your day by standing in front of a mirror. Tomorrow, this week, this year, always — pause as you look at yourself in the mirror. Think to yourself, or say aloud if you like: "Wow, look at me. I am awesome. I am a child of God. He knows me. He loves me. I am gifted with the Holy Ghost as my constant companion."

I am not an affirmation person. On my mission, all my companions were like — you should do affirmations. And I was like, no. This talk was given in October 2023, and I did it last November. So it took two years for me to get over myself and do this invitation. I printed out that blurb, put it on my mirror, and made myself do it for a couple of weeks. And I can't even explain why — it changed the way I saw myself as a daughter of God. It made me feel like I was awesome, that I had the Holy Ghost as my constant companion. And I needed that, right when I started my law school applications. So if you need a way to break your cycle of self-distrust — that was one way I was able to break some thought patterns and connect to the Lord and feel my divine worth a little more fully.

That's great. Annie, this has been wonderful talking with you. Just one last question — how can those listening connect with you?

I have an Instagram — it's @ogden_annie. Ogden like the city, Annie like the musical. And then I also run @religiousfreedomforall. And I am going to post a little video about the mirror challenge on my YouTube channel — it's called Halley-yeah, H-A-L-L-E-Y-E-A-H, like Hallelujah but then like, yeah. I'm really scared to post it, but I'm going to. So if it helps somebody out there, that would be great.

Well, thank you so much. It has been wonderful talking with you and I really appreciate you sharing your story.

Yeah, thanks for putting up with me. I feel like I learned a lot from this conversation too. I probably got more out of it than you did. Self love, divine love, self trust, divine trust. Amen.